Death Of A Megachurch

[sawmilljim]

Had fellow tell me he was surrendering to the call to preach. I asked which side called him.

[wildhorseluvr]

Jun 6, 2024 13:16:28 GMT sawmilljim said:

Had fellow tell me he was surrendering to the call to preach. I asked which side called him.

Quite a few years ago I was reading a magazine article (pretty sure it was the Fortune 500 magazine) where they were promoting pastor as being one of the most lucrative careers to get into.

[Jolly]

The average size protestant church in America has 70 members.

Now, that's average. Could be 25. Even less. A few might be 2500. Maybe more.

Many pastors are bivocational. Some can make a decent middle-class living in a church that has a couple hundred or more members. Not that many make the big money, and some that do are definitely charlatans. Some aren't.

[woolybear]

These are the kinds of questions (I've got a million of them) that insist on running thru my mind as I'm trying to go to sleep. This can make some of those sleepless nights very interesting, but by morning I forget the answers that made so much sense at 3 am.

[Tricky Grama]

Jun 6, 2024 12:18:30 GMT woolybear said:

Jun 6, 2024 11:40:05 GMT Tricky Grama said:

Where-ever 2 or more are gathered together...

I've always wondered about that statement...where ever 2 or more are gathered. If I'm understanding my Bible the holy spirit was left for us so that we would not be alone. So if I'm alone but the holy spirit is with me does that count as the 2 or more? The reason for my asking is..does this negate the need for an actual church building and all of the political and corruptness that goes with the religious "corporation". I understand the desire to worship with others, but I've also seen the pettiness, spitefulness, and the deliberate need to hurt other people. One prime example is the United Methodist Church demanding a ransom for a congregation to be able to break away and keep their building. The ransom deal has really turned me off to organized religion, add in the pandering to the alphabet groups and I'm about done with it all. Also holy communion, where in the bible does it say "only a religious leader may bless the bread and wine"? I thought at the Last Supper that Jesus told his disciples (and I guess anyone else) to take the bread and wine in remembrance of Him. 
 Oops sorry about going off on a tangent. But there are times that supposed high up religious leaders really burn my biscuits. When my church finally closes up (and it's getting close) I will visit other churches, may find one that I like but I don't think I will ever join another church and do my worshipping at home.

I agree w/all you say.
Of course I maintain I'm 'spiritual' not 'religious'.  Do you know the difference? Spiritual people are too lazy to go to church. 
As far as that quote about 2 or more...I think its just to show us that big buildings, etc, are not needed. That a couple people can conduct a 'service' & worship.

[Ozarks Tom]

HOUSTON, TX—A suspicious package mailed to Joel Osteen and intercepted by Lakewood Church security was found to contain a copy of the Christian Bible, sources confirmed Wednesday.

"We noticed right away the package didn't feel right," said Lakewood's head of security. "It was about the right weight to contain the 66 books of the Bible, and sure enough, there it was." A special Bible squad was called in to extract the package from the premises and dispose of it, making sure Osteen remained safe from the knowledge of the gospel.

Osteen stated he had a "bad feeling" when he went into the office this morning and began hissing, "It burnss ussss!" about the time the suspicious package was delivered to Lakewood's mail room. "I usually have a really positive feeling, but hoo boy—I just knew something wasn't right when I went into work this morning. I'm glad my security team is on top of things."

Several prosperity gospel preachers decried the attempted terrorism. "This is not how we deal with each other civilly in this country," said Creflo Dollar. "Mailing one of us Word-Faith teachers a copy of the Bibles is simply beyond the pale." Benny Hinn agreed, and also claimed to have received a MacArthur Study Bible in the mail several weeks ago. "I still have the singe marks on my hands," he said.

[farmrbrown]

Jun 6, 2024 12:18:30 GMT woolybear said:

Jun 6, 2024 11:40:05 GMT Tricky Grama said:

Where-ever 2 or more are gathered together...

I've always wondered about that statement...where ever 2 or more are gathered. If I'm understanding my Bible the holy spirit was left for us so that we would not be alone. So if I'm alone but the holy spirit is with me does that count as the 2 or more? The reason for my asking is..does this negate the need for an actual church building and all of the political and corruptness that goes with the religious "corporation". I understand the desire to worship with others, but I've also seen the pettiness, spitefulness, and the deliberate need to hurt other people. One prime example is the United Methodist Church demanding a ransom for a congregation to be able to break away and keep their building. The ransom deal has really turned me off to organized religion, add in the pandering to the alphabet groups and I'm about done with it all. Also holy communion, where in the bible does it say "only a religious leader may bless the bread and wine"? I thought at the Last Supper that Jesus told his disciples (and I guess anyone else) to take the bread and wine in remembrance of Him. 
 Oops sorry about going off on a tangent. But there are times that supposed high up religious leaders really burn my biscuits. When my church finally closes up (and it's getting close) I will visit other churches, may find one that I like but I don't think I will ever join another church and do my worshipping at home.

That's a good question and I suppose there can be more than one answer to it, depending on the context which is what I found when I looked at several sources.
This one was the best one, IMO and worth reading when you consider the fact that everything Christ said was based on what was already written in God's word at the time.

ourrabbijesus.com/where-two-or-three-are-gathered/

There’s also a longer discussion about how many people are required for God’s presence to be among them:

Rabbi Chalafta ben Dosa (~100 AD) used to say: ‘If ten men sit together and occupy themselves with the Torah, the Divine Presence rests among them, as it is written (Psalm 82:1) “God has taken his place in the divine council.” And from where do we learn that this applies even to five? Because it is written (Amos 9:6) “And founds his vault upon the earth.” And how do we learn that this applies even to three? Because it is written (Psalm 82:1) “In the midst of the gods he holds judgment.” And from where can it be shown that the same applies even to two? Because it is written (Malachi 3:16) “Then those who revered the Lord spoke with one another. The Lord took note and listened.” And from where even of one? Because it is written (Exodus 20:24) “In every place where I cause my name to be remembered I will come to you and bless you.” Mishnah, Avot 3:4-7 *

I don’t think this discussion was intended to be a hard-edged theological proof about where God present and where he is not. Rather, it seems to be a sermonic exhortation to study, pray and decide matters of Bible interpretation in the presence of others.

The common denominator in all of these rabbinic statements is the presence of God being especially near when his people gather to meditate on how he wants them to live. This is really the central point of each one. Sometimes they are praying, but sometimes they are studying or judging a trial.

Jesus’ statement fits right in among them, and it sounds like his words about “two or three are gathered” have a very similar intention, stressing the idea of gathering and praying as a group in order to discern his will.

[sunny225]

One is the required number of people to be present for God to be among them.
If you are born again, He lives in you.

[meandtk]

The context of the quotation refers to reconciliation and church disciplinary matters. Whether the church is large or small, they are to seek reconciliation when brothers in Christ are in conflict. When the issue is not resolved, then it must go through the steps on Matthew 18:15-20. Should it reach the point the church is sought to intervene to make peace, Jesus teaches the church is to do on Earth what has been settled in Heaven, and He affirms He will be in the midst of the church as she seeks to obey and honor God.

Matthew 18:20 (An Exposition of the New Testament, Volumes I–III): Ver. 20. For where two or three are gathered together, &c.] This seems to be said in opposition to a Jewish notion, that a number less than ten, is not a congregation; whereas, though the number is ever so few that are met together to pray to God, or to hear his word, attend on his ordinances, or do the business of his house, or transact any affair that is for the glory of God, and the good of souls, in my name, says Christ; that is, by his authority, depending on his assistance, calling upon his name, and making use of it, and seeking the glory of it: there am I in the midst of them; presiding over them, ruling in their hearts, directing their counsels, assisting them in all they are concerned, confirming what they do, and giving a blessing and success to all they are engaged in.
John Gill

[Ozarks Tom]

I'd like to publicly say that back a few years ago meandtk, answered some questions for me that brought me closer to Jesus. I'd asked him some questions that were troubling me, and he brought the Light of both reasonable and God inspired answers. Thank you.

[sunny225]

I think we all have some questions about things that are in the Word that trouble us.

[farmrbrown]

Jun 9, 2024 2:21:51 GMT sunny225 said:

I think we all have some questions about things that are in the Word that trouble us.

I used to, especially from childhood when the answers I got from men didn't jibe with the Word of God. So like a child, I just kept pestering my Father for the answers and even when they seemed outrageous/absurd at the time, I've come to learn He knows exactly what He's doing. I may not like the answer every time but He's never been proven wrong either.

[meandtk]

Jun 9, 2024 0:20:47 GMT Ozarks Tom said:

I'd like to publicly say that back a few years ago meandtk , answered some questions for me that brought me closer to Jesus. I'd asked him some questions that were troubling me, and he brought the Light of both reasonable and God inspired answers. Thank you.

The pleasure and blessing are mine.

[wildhorseluvr]

Jun 12, 2024 14:07:58 GMT meandtk said:

Jun 9, 2024 0:20:47 GMT Ozarks Tom said:

I'd like to publicly say that back a few years ago meandtk , answered some questions for me that brought me closer to Jesus. I'd asked him some questions that were troubling me, and he brought the Light of both reasonable and God inspired answers. Thank you.

The pleasure and blessing are mine.

You’ve cleared a few things up for me from time to time as well. Thank you. 🙂

[meandtk]

wildhorseluvr,
Aw, shucks! Thanks