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Post by Jolly on Sept 29, 2020 2:50:33 GMT
For them to ask you to leave illegally, they must be breaking a law. Which one? Never mind, it doesn't matter. How did you profit from this encounter? I'm guessing it has something to do with truth, justice, and the American way. . I guess the law that was broken was civil rights violation, interfering with someone's right to travel freely and conduct business/commerce. As for what did I profit from it? Nothing. He cost me a couple hours of my time and since I had stopped on my way to my next customer's job, it also cost me money. The one positive outcome was I got to talk to the police chief for about half an hour and had wanted to meet him for several years. He was confident that I was never in danger of being arrested for such a petty thing, but I'm pretty sure he would have if I hadn't left when I did. So, why didn't you sue?
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Post by BrewDaddy on Sept 29, 2020 2:55:18 GMT
I almost got fired today for something that wasn't my fault, and when the SHTF the person responsible wouldn't step up, so yes, I'm kind of full of p and vinegar tonight... I usually tune out the 'cops done wrong' threads and have only read a few of the posts with this, and seeing the 'lively discussion' taking place I managed to watch the video that I believe Jolly posted. All this may have already been 'bantered about' already for all I know... That video sure looked pretty damning didn't it? I watched that and said wow - I really don't think that's how *I* would have handled that... walk up to someone, 10 seconds of conversation, you're under arrest and the show begins.... I could easily be wrong, but I just found it a bit odd that as soon as the uniformed officer started walking through the grandstands that someone started recording... do people these days just start doing a video every time they see someone in uniform? At some school event which based on the small crowd size was something like a 6th grade soccer match or something? I suspect that there had been a prior interaction with this woman, and THEN the uniformed officer was asked to respond when the situation hadn't been resolved thru other means... just a hunch... Popping open another beer... I'm reminded of my cop days when sitting in on what is called an 'oral board interview'.... on rare occasion these are pretty much a lot like a job interview, but usually they are you against anywhere between 3 and 12 people and their job is to tear you to shreds... if you answer A, they'll rip you apart for not answering B... and vice versa... and Lord help you if you change your mind.... So one popular question is the "What would you do if...." and they lay out some scenario where no matter what you do, it's just gonna go from bad to worse... What would you do if it's midnight and some 80 year old woman stops her car in the middle of the busiest intersection in town?? Well I'd approach the vehicle, make contact, find out the problem, assist as necessary and resolve the situation... Cool. What would you do if she won't roll down the window and just sits there flipping you the finger? Well.... I would.... uhm..... and as you are trying to figure it out, they say it's not Midnight, it's 5:10pm in the middle of rush hour traffic, cars are honking, people are yelling at you to get her the hell out of there, tempers are getting hot, and the 80 year old woman is flipping you the finger and screaming obscenities at you... Now what are ya gonna do? Eventually they will work you into a corner until your only viable option is to bust out her window, drag her out of the car and put her under arrest... Great - now I get to go home and tell my wife I spent my shift busting out the window of a 80 year old woman's car and physically removing her, putting her in cuffs, stuffing her into my patrol car and book her into jail while she's kicking and screaming at me.... Lose Lose, and you better get the answer right.... Every cop from time to time has to pull that B.S. duty like 4th of July parades, jewelry store annual BIG sale!! crud, and yes, school events... why they need actual cops for this I just don't know, since anyone with some sort of official looking ID can do 90% of what an actual cop can do... But yes, a question on the oh-so-friendly oral board is: You are working security at a high school basketball game, and someone comes up and reports that 3 people just took soda pop and popcorn out through a door into the hallway, despite there being a sign that says "No food or drink beyond this point".... And the funny thing is, this actually happened to me for reelz... If you do nothing, then rules are meaningless... if you do something and it gets dicey, then you are a storm trooper nazi... How did I handle that exact situation in real life? I went out there and told the people my buddy the janitor had just cleaned the floors, and he'd be p.o.'d if someone made a mess... Would you mind coming back inside please? They did... But what if they ignored me or told me to bugger off... Now the game is on... Again, I don't have many facts related to this, everything I just said could be moot or wrong, but I suspect there's more to this than was seen in that video... brew
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Post by Jolly on Sept 29, 2020 3:12:49 GMT
There is, but you have to wade through this morass to get to it...According to a guy I know (yeah, it's hearsay) that lives up there, the woman was attending the game, rooting for the visiting team. The woman had a mask. She took it off in the stands, even though the sign at the gate stipulated masks at all times, as did the signs in the restrooms and multiple announcements over the PA system. She and her friend were The only two people in the stadium not wearing masks. The woman is well known in the community and to the cops. She has been involved with drugs and other things. The cop is also well known, respected and is the school resource officer.
I don't know, but suspect you are correct, that something had already been said to her before the cop was called over. Or maybe he just knew she was a problem child from previous experience and saw her flaunting the rules.
Regardless, I wonder what some of our armchair quarterbacks and Monday morning lawyers would do, if they had to don a badge everyday and deal with the public. Some, for lack of a better description, which are trash.
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Post by DEKE on Sept 29, 2020 3:32:06 GMT
And you DO know this how, Senor Quixote? Because I was there and witnessed the whole event. So the woman that told you to wait, you could see her at all times? Could you also see all the other employees in the store at all times? How do you know how many employees were in the store? I recently updated my phone and spent several hours in 4 different Verizon stores, 2 company owned and 2 franchises that are Verizon in name only. All of them had at least 5 employees visible when I was in the store, but only one employee visible from outside. Maybe yours was different and had windows that allowed you to see all points within the store including the back office?
Look, I don't know what happened, but where you are clearly wrong is in what you are sure you know. I see this all the time, people think they know things they can not possibly know and assume things they have seen and heard must be 100% truth. The person you talked to in corporate could have told you truth, could have been completely in the know, or could have been merely trying to do damage control the best he thought appropriate. Unless you have some hotline to the CEO of Verizon (or the owner of that franchise) you can't be sure that the info you got was correct, authorized, company policy, or just someone talking off the top of their head.
If the store was not a franchise, I guarantee you didn't talk to anyone all that important at Verizon HQ. If it was a franshise, it could have been the CEO for all I know, but my guess would be not.
I read a SciFi story once that made a big impression on me. There were these folks who were professional witnesses who were trained on being 100% accurate. If you asked pro-witness what color a distant building's roof was, he would tell you only that the roof on the side of the building he could see was X and that he could not tell you what the color was on the other side. He knew what he didn't know. IRL, all of us often don't know what we don't know. I include myself in that.
You know what you saw. You know what you heard from several folks on site and on the phone. You don't know what you didn't see, could not see, did not hear, could not hear, or if what the person on the other end of the phone was telling you was accurate.
Because you want to tilt at this windmill, you have decided that every data point that you need to be a certain way must be absolutely as you believe. If you were acting as you described yourself in a prior message about your experience at Walmart and I were an employee of that store, you can bet I would have asked the cop to send you packing.
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Post by wildhorseluvr on Sept 29, 2020 3:35:06 GMT
Seems like almost all cops are just in a damned if you do, damned if you don't, situation anymore. My take on this after watching the video is that the cop may have been a bit quick to use the taser but she was way out of line. In this political climate, maybe she was looking for a fight, and planning on collecting some $$$. And yeah, BrewDaddy, I think everyone does pull out their phone and start videotaping for any reason now, but especially if it involves a cop.
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Post by DEKE on Sept 29, 2020 3:42:36 GMT
I guess the law that was broken was civil rights violation, interfering with someone's right to travel freely and conduct business/commerce. so you are positive the law was broken but you don't know which law. That's possible. Verizon can refuse you service for a wide range of reasons as long as it isn't related to protected class type issues, so I assume your issue is with the cop and not Verizon. You might have a case if you can prove damages. What is a few hours of your time worth? [/div]
I would guess you are correct, that you would have eventually been trespass warned and arrested if you did not comply.
Personally, I needed a new phone and wearing a mask while I was in the store was required by the business. For me, life is too short to spend a lot of time and aggravation on something that costs me next to nothing. But YMMV. I try to reserve my righteous indignation for things that truly harm me and when the emotional turmoil will lead to me benefit. Sometimes I'm too hard headed or emotional to understand when the fight is worth it but I like to think that as I've matured in life, I've gotten to be a bit more discerning.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 29, 2020 4:09:16 GMT
I guess the law that was broken was civil rights violation, interfering with someone's right to travel freely and conduct business/commerce. so you are positive the law was broken but you don't know which law. That's possible. Verizon can refuse you service for a wide range of reasons as long as it isn't related to protected class type issues, so I assume your issue is with the cop and not Verizon. You might have a case if you can prove damages. What is a few hours of your time worth? As for what did I profit from it? Nothing. He cost me a couple hours of my time and since I had stopped on my way to my next customer's job, it also cost me money. The one positive outcome was I got to talk to the police chief for about half an hour and had wanted to meet him for several years. He was confident that I was never in danger of being arrested for such a petty thing, but I'm pretty sure he would have if I hadn't left when I did. I would guess you are correct, that you would have eventually been trespass warned and arrested if you did not comply.
Personally, I needed a new phone and wearing a mask while I was in the store was required by the business. For me, life is too short to spend a lot of time and aggravation on something that costs me next to nothing. But YMMV. I try to reserve my righteous indignation for things that truly harm me and when the emotional turmoil will lead to me benefit. Sometimes I'm too hard headed or emotional to understand when the fight is worth it but I like to think that as I've matured in life, I've gotten to be a bit more discerning.
[/quote] As long as I'm dialing up old sayings...Used to work for a guy that got caught up in an ultra high-level political feces storm, trying to do what he thought was the right thing. He used to say a couple of things a lot... You need big guns for big targets. And... .If you shoot at the king, make sure you kill him....
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 29, 2020 5:29:08 GMT
I guess the law that was broken was civil rights violation, interfering with someone's right to travel freely and conduct business/commerce. As for what did I profit from it? Nothing. He cost me a couple hours of my time and since I had stopped on my way to my next customer's job, it also cost me money. The one positive outcome was I got to talk to the police chief for about half an hour and had wanted to meet him for several years. He was confident that I was never in danger of being arrested for such a petty thing, but I'm pretty sure he would have if I hadn't left when I did. So, why didn't you sue? Same reason I didn't on the several previous occasions when I was inconvenienced for a while, and on the right side of the law, which the officer ignored digging his hole deeper. Since there was never a great amount of money involved, going to the Chief of police or the D.A. privately earned me 2 things. Their respect and gratitude. Not saying any party was obliged for anything, but it HAS been an advantage on several occasions.
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 29, 2020 5:33:47 GMT
Because I was there and witnessed the whole event. So the woman that told you to wait, you could see her at all times? Could you also see all the other employees in the store at all times? How do you know how many employees were in the store? I recently updated my phone and spent several hours in 4 different Verizon stores, 2 company owned and 2 franchises that are Verizon in name only. All of them had at least 5 employees visible when I was in the store, but only one employee visible from outside. Maybe yours was different and had windows that allowed you to see all points within the store including the back office?
Look, I don't know what happened, but where you are clearly wrong is in what you are sure you know. I see this all the time, people think they know things they can not possibly know and assume things they have seen and heard must be 100% truth. The person you talked to in corporate could have told you truth, could have been completely in the know, or could have been merely trying to do damage control the best he thought appropriate. Unless you have some hotline to the CEO of Verizon (or the owner of that franchise) you can't be sure that the info you got was correct, authorized, company policy, or just someone talking off the top of their head.
If the store was not a franchise, I guarantee you didn't talk to anyone all that important at Verizon HQ. If it was a franshise, it could have been the CEO for all I know, but my guess would be not.
I read a SciFi story once that made a big impression on me. There were these folks who were professional witnesses who were trained on being 100% accurate. If you asked pro-witness what color a distant building's roof was, he would tell you only that the roof on the side of the building he could see was X and that he could not tell you what the color was on the other side. He knew what he didn't know. IRL, all of us often don't know what we don't know. I include myself in that.
You know what you saw. You know what you heard from several folks on site and on the phone. You don't know what you didn't see, could not see, did not hear, could not hear, or if what the person on the other end of the phone was telling you was accurate.
Because you want to tilt at this windmill, you have decided that every data point that you need to be a certain way must be absolutely as you believe. If you were acting as you described yourself in a prior message about your experience at Walmart and I were an employee of that store, you can bet I would have asked the cop to send you packing. Actually in this store there IS nothing but large plate glass windows between where we were on the sidewalk and all the way thru the lobby. You can see the road on the OTHER side of the building and nearly all the traffic passing by too. But after talking to the security guard's boss, he left no doubt as to who was wrong with his apologies. I didn't hold a grudge and said so, and the guard was reassigned and not fired as far as I know. In the end I wasn't happy when it started but I managed to make my point and NOT go to jail, which isn't the worst thing in the world to accomplish.
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Post by laurazone5 on Sept 29, 2020 11:53:52 GMT
Stories like this are 99% of the time, missing information.
Click bait to inflame already irritated folks.
Cops, retail workers, restaurant workers are now 'medical professionals' per governor / mayor mandates. Cops, retail workers, restaurant workers are now forced to 'enforce' UnConstitutional BS or face fines, termination, etc.
There are those who are genuinely terrified of Covid, (thanks media) and folks do and say the darnedest things when they are scared. There are those who are justifiable angry because of the Covid (thanks leaders) and folks do and say the darnedest things when they are mad.
Some folks will show their back side at every opportunity that presents itself.
Don't want the mask? Organize, protest.....
But what's happening is a Civil War.
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Post by DEKE on Sept 29, 2020 13:44:25 GMT
Actually in this store there IS nothing but large plate glass windows between where we were on the sidewalk and all the way thru the lobby. You can see the road on the OTHER side of the building and nearly all the traffic passing by too. You are going to make me throw the BS flag. There's no back office? There's no bathrooms with walls? There are no floor to ceiling display walls with Verizon stuff for sale? You could watch every employee all the while you are arguing with the rent-a-cop and real cop? BS. You're making up stuff now.
And yesterday you didn't think this was a relevant enough part of the story to mention but suddenly this little detail happens to pop out? LOL It makes a guy wonder.
You know, I've met a few police chiefs in my life. You don't have to go in yelling at them and complaining. You can actually call them on the phone or walk into their office and chat calmly about your point of interest without forcing an angry altercation with a cop. The last police chief I met, I went to his office to tell him about a cop who had deescalated a problem that he could have easily made worse by throwing his weight around. I figured, cop did a good, creative job, show him some love. The chief really appreciated it and I'm sure that cop did as well when the feedback got to him from his boss. If you want to get the chief on your side, you might try catching him with honey instead of vinegar.
You do realize you manufactured this little drama because you like it?
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 29, 2020 23:19:44 GMT
Actually in this store there IS nothing but large plate glass windows between where we were on the sidewalk and all the way thru the lobby. You can see the road on the OTHER side of the building and nearly all the traffic passing by too. You are going to make me throw the BS flag. There's no back office? There's no bathrooms with walls? There are no floor to ceiling display walls with Verizon stuff for sale? You could watch every employee all the while you are arguing with the rent-a-cop and real cop? BS. You're making up stuff now.
And yesterday you didn't think this was a relevant enough part of the story to mention but suddenly this little detail happens to pop out? LOL It makes a guy wonder.
You know, I've met a few police chiefs in my life. You don't have to go in yelling at them and complaining. You can actually call them on the phone or walk into their office and chat calmly about your point of interest without forcing an angry altercation with a cop. The last police chief I met, I went to his office to tell him about a cop who had deescalated a problem that he could have easily made worse by throwing his weight around. I figured, cop did a good, creative job, show him some love. The chief really appreciated it and I'm sure that cop did as well when the feedback got to him from his boss. If you want to get the chief on your side, you might try catching him with honey instead of vinegar.
You do realize you manufactured this little drama because you like it?
Nope. But only someone that didn't know me would doubt everything I said was true. And it was the fact that I did calmly walk in the station, leave my business card for the chief to call me later, that he did call me later and we had a pleasant, friendly chat. He even gave me some helpful advice about switching to T-Mobile, the carrier he's used for the last 10 years. No, I'm sorry but I've never needed to manufacture any story and I can do without any drama in my life. I'd rather go about my business and live in peace. But it's true there are other interesting parts to the whole thing that weren't relevant to its validity that I didn't mention. The head of the security company didn't know me but had no doubt I was telling the truth. He knew the guy on duty at Verizon that day, and two other security guards I know. One is customer of mine whose pool pump I replaced , the other one is the Pastor of our church. Small world isn't it?
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