Buffalo Police push elderly man

[blackfeather]

This is all the talk around here, some say the police are to aggressive others say they guy brought it on himself by approaching the police and reaching for the officer's belt.  
The Buffalo Police are known for being rough and racist.   Though they learn to be, dealing with inner city people.   The one officer appears to have called for an ambulance immediately after it happened. 
I'm going to side with the police in this one, during a protest there was no need to get into an officer's face or appear to reach for his belt. The officer just pushed him back, he got tangled in his own feet and fell.  A 70 year old has no business acting in such a way.  I'm 60 an I wouldn't act that way, may be an emotional 20 year old but not an old man especially knowing the reputation of the Buffalo Police.  That is like kicking over a wasp nest and wondering why the stung you.

[farmerjack41]

AMEN !

[fordy]

........If the guy had some kind of weapon , then , their response is acceptable , otherwise it's the SOS replay of the idiot Cops using excessive force and the public be damned ! He wasn't in a group , he didn't come running UP to them thereby forcing them to react to protect themselves from a hidden gun or club !
........It's about time the Cops had their Nutts busted for "excessive" use of force against citizens who , obviously , had no intention of inflicting injury on their person ! , fordy

[DEKE]

Look at that video again. He didn't get in the cops face, the cop got in his face. He probably shouldn't have walked up to those cops, but do we know if he lived in one of those apartments, what he said, or anything else?

I question why the cop pushed him at all. He's obviously not a spry young man. Had he been warned to back up and approached anyway? Did the cop get physical without trying to deescalate the situation? I'm withholding judgment for now, not enough video leading up to the encounter and context to draw any conclusions.

[farmrbrown]

The longer this goes on the harder it is to find decency, reasonableness, civility and plain old common sense being used by anyone.
At first I thought that was a rifle the cop had but it looks like a baton, riot stick, whatever it's called. A tonfa used to be the standard issue and a heckuva a weapon in close quarters in the right hands.
But reaching for ANYTHING on a cop's belt is only interpreted one way by anyone with more than 2 brain cells and almost always with a predictable result - bad or worse, lol.
What keeps coming to my attention in almost every instance where a police officer's action is publicly scrutinized, many times I see the same mistake repeated.
The debate who, what, when, where and how these things are looked at or the right to to it at all is ANOTHER matter I'm not going to address now at all.

In military and police training of hand-to-hand combat (again, insert whatever label you want to call it) I doubt they spend as much time teaching defensive tactics as much as they do offensive ones.
And the reasons are as old as the arts themselves and have been used by students in every beginners' class......
"Ain't got time for all that."
"I just need to learn 3 or 4 moves to quickly stop, maim or kill my opponent."
"Not interested in giving any opportunity to the other guy when my own life may be in danger."
And for the police force - "I don't want my officers to learn anything that might cause them NOT to come home to their families."

Sounds reasonable and harmless but the reason you learn mostly defense first is because it HELPS to save your life as well as others too. It isn't altruistic or part of some Buddhist philosophy. It's a fundamental part of the training. And guess what? It DOES have the added benefit that when they play you on tape 100 times in slow motion, you come out looking like a professional, good guy who kept everyone safe with as little harm as possible instead of a lineman playing on a Big Ten football team.

One simple arm sweep would have kept that old man's hand from getting within a foot of his belt, stopped his forward motion and even turned him around 180 degrees, ready to be cuffed if necessary. And if he DID stumble and fall, it would be right into the waiting arms of officer Brutus.
Sure, a hard shove to the cement works too, but maybe the city attorney could do more than settle lawsuits next year.
Just a suggestion.........

[wildhorseluvr]

Jun 5, 2020 16:03:27 GMT DEKE said:

Look at that video again. He didn't get in the cops face, the cop got in his face. He probably shouldn't have walked up to those cops, but do we know if he lived in one of those apartments, what he said, or anything else?

I question why the cop pushed him at all. He's obviously not a spry young man. Had he been warned to back up and approached anyway? Did the cop get physical without trying to deescalate the situation? I'm withholding judgment for now, not enough video leading up to the encounter and context to draw any conclusions.

I disagree. I watched that video 6x, the cops were already on the move when the man walked up in front of them. The cop did nothing at first until the man repeatedly reached at his belt, then gave him a slight shove. The guy was trying to antagonize, maybe to make the news and/or cash in on a lawsuit. Of course there just happened to be someone filming all of that 🙄
My youngest grandkids know enough not to get in a cop's space and to NEVER lay hands on one or reach for anything on his person. How stupid can you get, especially in an obviously tense situation?! 😧 If I had done that I'd have considered myself lucky to get off with a small push instead of being taken to the ground. No sympathy from me, at his age he should know better.

The cop didn't push him hard either, I'm not particularly steady on my feet anymore and that wouldn't have knocked me down. My dog jumps on me harder than that. 

*Both cops were suspended w/o pay shortly after the incident. These cities may get what they want, no police presence.

[DEKE]

Jun 5, 2020 17:45:43 GMT farmrbrown said:

But reaching for ANYTHING on a cop's belt is only interpreted one way

did he?  Looks like he had some sort of paper in that hand.  was it nothing more than an unthinking hand gesture or was he reaching for the cops belt? He could have been trying to get the cop to take the paper. 

The video is so fuzzy I really can't tell. 

regardless, I like your thoughts on defensive tactics.  for what ever reason, two cops, with about 30+ others backing them up, shoved an older man that doesn't move too well.  I don't want to sound like shoot 'em in the leg Biden, but there should have been some lesser force action they could try.

Blackfeather elsewhere mentioned the gang mentality of cops.  That might be in play here, but I hate to draw too firm of conclusions either way on such a meager snippet of video.  

[Jolly]

Just because you're 70, doesn't mean you aren't an idiot.

That's a walking police line, meant to clear an area. Only an idiot, a fool or somebody intent on getting their butt kicked decides they're going to stand their ground like a bull elephant in front of a clear-out line.

[DEKE]

Jun 5, 2020 17:59:06 GMT wildhorseluvr said:

I disagree. I watched that video 6x, the cops were already on the move when the man walked up in front of them. The cop did nothing at first until the man repeatedly reached at his belt, then gave him a slight shove. The guy was trying to antagonize, maybe to make the news and/or cash in on a lawsuit. Of course there just happened to be someone filming all of that 🙄

have you ever watched a football game with a bunch friends or in a bar?  There's a flag on the play and with high quality video from a dozen different angles, people argue it was a foul, it was not a foul, you're crazy, you're blind, etc.  People see what they want to see.  Maybe I'm not seeing something that I should be seeing. 

I watched the vid a dozen times or more.  expanding the picture didn't make it any less fuzzy.  I don't know if it is my lousy internet not downloading a higher resolution vid or if I'm seeing it as good as it gets. 

If that man was really reaching for trouble, I'm glad he got what was coming to him.  If the cops were unnecessarily rough because right now they hate anyone in the streets, I hope they pay.  I'll withhold judgment. 

[woody]

I've watched that video & other videos of that incident a number of times. It does appear he reached downward, but not too sure for his belt? All I gotta say is the man is in serious condition...and I thank God he wasn't black. That would have been much worse, sadly.

[Mari]

Jun 5, 2020 18:31:19 GMT DEKE said:

Jun 5, 2020 17:45:43 GMT farmrbrown said:

But reaching for ANYTHING on a cop's belt is only interpreted one way

did he?  Looks like he had some sort of paper in that hand.  was it nothing more than an unthinking hand gesture or was he reaching for the cops belt? He could have been trying to get the cop to take the paper. 

The video is so fuzzy I really can't tell. 

regardless, I like your thoughts on defensive tactics.  for what ever reason, two cops, with about 30+ others backing them up, shoved an older man that doesn't move too well.  I don't want to sound like shoot 'em in the leg Biden, but there should have been some lesser force action they could try.

Blackfeather elsewhere mentioned the gang mentality of cops.  That might be in play here, but I hate to draw too firm of conclusions either way on such a meager snippet of video.  

Looks to me like he has a phone in his hand...
My opinion for whatever it is worth - haha - is that it was some sort of a gesture - looks to me possibly towards the baton the policeman was holding?
Either way - sad state of affairs.

[wildhorseluvr]

DEKE, I grew up as the middle child...always trying to see both sides. I don't defend all cops, there are absolutely some bad ones out there. My brother got a terrible (and totally undeserved) beating from 2 Seattle cops. Not that long ago a child in my family (well under 100 lbs) had the cr@p kicked out of her by a couple of our city cops. Our local cops intervened or who knows what would've happened to her. 

The videos I looked at were fairly clear. I've now watched them several more times and I don't see a problem until he kept reaching toward the officer's belt. He did not appear to be grabbing for anything but it doesn't matter...you DON'T do that to a cop!  The only reason I can see for him doing so is to deliberately create a scene. Unfortunately it didn't turn out so well for him. I feel bad that he was injured but can't really blame the cop. Nor does it appear to me that the cop was trying to knock him down, just push him back. 

JMHO. As a woman I reserve the right to change that opinion if facts show otherwise, but for now I'll side with the cop. 

[Ozarks Tom]

The guy did have a phone in his hand, you can see it when he initially walks up, when he gestures toward the policeman, and when he's laying on the sidewalk and it drops out of his hand.

That's not to excuse his stupidity in walking into a line of police intent on clearing a disturbance, but it does answer the question as to whether he was reaching for something on the cop.

If I had to lay blame, it would be 75% old guy, 25% cop.

[wildhorseluvr]

Looks like an entire unit, 57 cops, of the Buffalo Police just resigned.

*Headline was somewhat misleading. They are still with the dept but quit the Emergency Response Team.

[DEKE]

I don't know if this story provides more info.

link fixed

In addition to the injuries to the man, I find this part disturbing

"Buffalo police only made matters worse with their first statement about the incident, in which they asserted that the man "tripped and fell." The mayor admitted that was an erroneous statement and they corrected it once more information came out."

I'm willing to wait for more info, but if we find out some cop reported the man "tripped and fell" then he needs to lose his job because he filed a false report. If Flynn can go to jail for lying to the FBI, the police can go to jail for lying to us. Too many times we've seen police file false reports that get changed only when video evidence forces the dept to admit there was a cover up.