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Post by DEKE on Sept 27, 2020 14:36:26 GMT
It's good advice to NOT fight with a cop and it's equally good advice to make sure that if a cop is abusing his authority you DON'T let it slide either. I had a similar situation a few months ago at the Verizon store. I was ILLEGALLY told to leave the premises. I did, but my next stop was the police station and got a phone call from the chief later that day. But not fighting doesn't mean the same as tolerating what was done. how were you illegally told to leave a Verizon store?
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Post by DEKE on Sept 27, 2020 14:44:00 GMT
As I understand it... 1. The school mandates masks and distancing in the stadium. 2. I don't know if she wore a mask into the stadium and then took it off, or just did not wear one. 3. She was asked by the cop to don a mask or please leave. 4. She refused. She stated she had asthma. 5. She was asked again to leave. Again she refused. 6. That turns into trespassing, and then the cop has a legal right to arrest you. Here's the law: codes.findlaw.com/oh/title-xxix-crimes-procedure/oh-rev-code-sect-2911-23.html7. She resisted arrest. 8. Now, the cop has the right to make you comply, by force. In this case, she got tazed. 9. Criminal Trespass is a First Degree Misdemeanor, punishable by 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $1000.
I'm good with all that. The school or city rule may or may not have been wise, but the cop was tasked with enforcing it. But there has to be more to the story to justify the tazing. The cop doesn't get to be judge and jury and executioner all in one. There has to be something in the police manual about when and why the cop can use his tazer and I doubt it permits tazers simply because the cop feels disrespected.
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 27, 2020 14:57:42 GMT
As I understand it... 1. The school mandates masks and distancing in the stadium. 2. I don't know if she wore a mask into the stadium and then took it off, or just did not wear one. 3. She was asked by the cop to don a mask or please leave. 4. She refused. She stated she had asthma. 5. She was asked again to leave. Again she refused. 6. That turns into trespassing, and then the cop has a legal right to arrest you. Here's the law: codes.findlaw.com/oh/title-xxix-crimes-procedure/oh-rev-code-sect-2911-23.html7. She resisted arrest. 8. Now, the cop has the right to make you comply, by force. In this case, she got tazed. 9. Criminal Trespass is a First Degree Misdemeanor, punishable by 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $1000.
I'm good with all that. The school or city rule may or may not have been wise, but the cop was tasked with enforcing it. But there has to be more to the story to justify the tazing. The cop doesn't get to be judge and jury and executioner all in one. There has to be something in the police manual about when and why the cop can use his tazer and I doubt it permits tazers simply because the cop feels disrespected.
I’m not up to date on some states, that said police are tasked with law enforcement not policy enforcement. Take Ky as a example if there is no KRS number for a offense it would be considered a policy thus not in the realm of law. Take this area the police makes the laws as they go and the judge enforces them. Now if you have a ton of cash to fight them in court along with a out of this area lawyers you might have a Chinimans chance in Haides of justices.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 27, 2020 16:35:29 GMT
As I understand it... 1. The school mandates masks and distancing in the stadium. 2. I don't know if she wore a mask into the stadium and then took it off, or just did not wear one. 3. She was asked by the cop to don a mask or please leave. 4. She refused. She stated she had asthma. 5. She was asked again to leave. Again she refused. 6. That turns into trespassing, and then the cop has a legal right to arrest you. Here's the law: codes.findlaw.com/oh/title-xxix-crimes-procedure/oh-rev-code-sect-2911-23.html7. She resisted arrest. 8. Now, the cop has the right to make you comply, by force. In this case, she got tazed. 9. Criminal Trespass is a First Degree Misdemeanor, punishable by 180 days in jail and a fine of up to $1000.
I'm good with all that. The school or city rule may or may not have been wise, but the cop was tasked with enforcing it. But there has to be more to the story to justify the tazing. The cop doesn't get to be judge and jury and executioner all in one. There has to be something in the police manual about when and why the cop can use his tazer and I doubt it permits tazers simply because the cop feels disrespected.
If you've seen the video, the cop doesn't just whip out a tazer and shock her. When he tells her she is being arrested, he tells her to put her hands behind her back and reaches for her forearm. She struggles with him, not wanting him to cuff her. That goes on for maybe half a minute? At that point, he gets enough and tazes her, enforcing compliance.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 27, 2020 16:36:05 GMT
At what other time in our history have we been mandated to cover our faces in public? At what other time have we been subject to arrest, tazing (which can kill someone, remember?), been kept in quarantine (even if healthy), had every single normal day to day interaction shut down (schools, church, gyms, work, restaurants, libraries, playgrounds, clubs, non-emergency care, medical treatments, and the list goes on.) At what point, ever, has society decided to absolutely jump the freaking shark and start beating people into submission? Hell, when O was president we had H1N1, he ordered that they stopped testing for it. The media was complacent, as were the politicians. I am not arguing that Covid19 can be dangerous to the vulnerable. I am arguing that it is ridiculous to shut down society and put the 99% at risk of certain harm and chaos to protect the 1% that should shield themselves anyway. Good freaking grief, I have seen how the lockdowns have destroyed my family, friends, neighbors, etc that aren't vulnerable. I haven't seen my baby sister since March, she's a dental assistant and is terrified of infecting us. I really miss her, and my Dad. He is a big guy and is diabetic. Haven't seen him since January. Quarantine the sick and vulnerable. Please, for the love of God, let the rest of us live. P.S. Stop with these ridiculous draconian orders. The state legislature makes laws, not the freaking power hungry governors. Would you carry a concealed weapon on the school grounds?
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 27, 2020 16:54:34 GMT
A better question is can you show me in the Constitution where is prohibits carrying a gun on any property ?
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Post by Jolly on Sept 27, 2020 17:45:54 GMT
A better question is can you show me in the Constitution where is prohibits carrying a gun on any property ? It's not. That was decided by U.S. vs. Lopez. The laws stem from state constitutions and state laws. I don't think Trespassing is in the U.S. Constitution, either. Unless you cite the clause about people being secure in their possessions...
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Post by Ozarks Tom on Sept 27, 2020 18:29:12 GMT
Jolly, asked: Yes, absolutely, just as my wife did when her office was in a building adjacent to a high school in Oak Cliff TX, a very near suburb of Dallas. The kind of place cops don't go at night if they can help it. Big sign at the chain link gate saying "Gun Free Zone", which was regularly ignored by many "students". When one of the people in her workers comp group would turn someone down, or stop their checks, it wasn't unusual for the claimant to threaten to come right over and "fix things". They'd of course call the police, but before the cops could get there the other gals in the office would gather around my wife's desk, knowing she had their only defense. The old saying "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" was the applicable motto.
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Post by themotherhen on Sept 27, 2020 19:09:18 GMT
At what other time in our history have we been mandated to cover our faces in public? At what other time have we been subject to arrest, tazing (which can kill someone, remember?), been kept in quarantine (even if healthy), had every single normal day to day interaction shut down (schools, church, gyms, work, restaurants, libraries, playgrounds, clubs, non-emergency care, medical treatments, and the list goes on.) At what point, ever, has society decided to absolutely jump the freaking shark and start beating people into submission? Hell, when O was president we had H1N1, he ordered that they stopped testing for it. The media was complacent, as were the politicians. I am not arguing that Covid19 can be dangerous to the vulnerable. I am arguing that it is ridiculous to shut down society and put the 99% at risk of certain harm and chaos to protect the 1% that should shield themselves anyway. Good freaking grief, I have seen how the lockdowns have destroyed my family, friends, neighbors, etc that aren't vulnerable. I haven't seen my baby sister since March, she's a dental assistant and is terrified of infecting us. I really miss her, and my Dad. He is a big guy and is diabetic. Haven't seen him since January. Quarantine the sick and vulnerable. Please, for the love of God, let the rest of us live. P.S. Stop with these ridiculous draconian orders. The state legislature makes laws, not the freaking power hungry governors. Would you carry a concealed weapon on the school grounds? The legislature has passed a law that prohibits the carrying of weapons on school property. Ohio's legislature has not, to date, passed legislation that mandates face coverings at school events. It is policy, not law.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 27, 2020 20:23:53 GMT
Would you carry a concealed weapon on the school grounds? The legislature has passed a law that prohibits the carrying of weapons on school property. Ohio's legislature has not, to date, passed legislation that mandates face coverings at school events. It is policy, not law. Is there a policy or is there a law stating that a person cannot bring alcohol on campus?
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Post by DEKE on Sept 27, 2020 20:44:15 GMT
The legislature has passed a law that prohibits the carrying of weapons on school property. Ohio's legislature has not, to date, passed legislation that mandates face coverings at school events. It is policy, not law. But the cop can be used to enforce school policy and as a representative of the school, can order people to leave the premises. If they don't leave the premises when told, they are trespassing. There are various degrees of trespass from misdemeanor to felony. I would have to do some research to see where this one falls, but he was enforcing law when he arrested the woman.
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Post by DEKE on Sept 27, 2020 20:48:18 GMT
If you've seen the video, the cop doesn't just whip out a tazer and shock her. When he tells her she is being arrested, he tells her to put her hands behind her back and reaches for her forearm. She struggles with him, not wanting him to cuff her. That goes on for maybe half a minute? At that point, he gets enough and tazes her, enforcing compliance.
So it will come down to if the cop was within department policy if her resistance was sufficient to warrant the tazing. Some departments require cops to attempt to deescalate conflicts when possible. All police should be required to do so, but that's just one man's opinion. As there was no reasonable threat of eminent violence to himself or others, he could have given her a bit of time, he could have explained what would happen.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 27, 2020 20:56:03 GMT
The legislature has passed a law that prohibits the carrying of weapons on school property. Ohio's legislature has not, to date, passed legislation that mandates face coverings at school events. It is policy, not law. But the cop can be used to enforce school policy and as a representative of the school, can order people to leave the premises. If they don't leave the premises when told, they are trespassing. There are various degrees of trespass from misdemeanor to felony. I would have to do some research to see where this one falls, but he was enforcing law when he arrested the woman. First degree misdemeanor for criminal trespass. Maximum time in jail, 180 days.
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Post by sawmilljim on Sept 27, 2020 21:01:54 GMT
The legislature has passed a law that prohibits the carrying of weapons on school property. Ohio's legislature has not, to date, passed legislation that mandates face coverings at school events. It is policy, not law. But the cop can be used to enforce school policy and as a representative of the school, can order people to leave the premises. If they don't leave the premises when told, they are trespassing. There are various degrees of trespass from misdemeanor to felony. I would have to do some research to see where this one falls, but he was enforcing law when he arrested the woman. I think that someone missed something to have a legal trespass on public property one has to of committed a unlawful act. Disobeying a policy is not unlawful bad manners maybe. The cops went on a fishing trip. If this woman has the means for a good lawyer my bet is she is going to get one large check.
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Post by joebill on Sept 27, 2020 21:07:50 GMT
Oddly, our doc offered to give Janet a paper excusing her from wearing a mask anywhere, because her blood-oxygen gets low when she does. She declined the paper, since we go so few places anyhow and only wear the masks rarely. We also felt like having a paper would not prevent people from hassling her if she was in "that kind of place". Of course, if asked to leave, she would not wrestle with the cop over it, but who would have thunk she'd be in danger of getting tased over the issue.. ......Joe
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