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Post by joebill on Sept 13, 2023 1:36:48 GMT
Yeah, sunny225, if it was not for America sticking it's nose in where it did not belong, we would all be happily trying to survive under whoever took over the mantle of leadership from Hitler.s The Berlin wall would still be standing, too, and those who tried to escape through it would still be shot in the streets. I could go on, but why bother?......Joe
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 13, 2023 1:54:46 GMT
So, it's a case of do as I say, not as I do?
IOW, the real reason Americans object to Russia wanting a "buffer zone" of like minded countries around her is because it is Socialist? Otherwise it would be ok? There's nothing wrong with making the argument that it's Good vs. Evil. Go ahead and have that debate, if you're right it'll be easy. But why insist it's impossible for Russia to have felt threatened by NATO's flirts with Ukraine when there's no denying that we would have done the same and actually HAVE? Pick any country from Cuba southward and tell me I'm wrong.....?
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Post by sunny225 on Sept 13, 2023 3:06:23 GMT
I'm not sure why Ozarks Tom, and joebill, feel the need to call me out. I already know that there is disagreement on this subject. I try to bring other viewpoints into the discussion. I didn't get any socialism bent from her article. If you are saying that every single time we've put our noses into other countries it was justified, I disagree. Iraq was not a part of 9-11. There is no way Bush thought it was. In fact, they jumped right onto bin Laden being the culprit of that tragedy. Too quickly I thought. I look at what Putin has said about NATO putting weapons on Russia's border being a threat the same way that Kennedy looked at Cuba having missiles as being a threat to the USA. If Putin and Russia felt threatened he/they did what they thought was needed in order to defend the country.
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Post by joebill on Sept 13, 2023 3:20:27 GMT
farmrbrown, Might I inquire as to how much of the cold war years you were alive and politically aware? You might just as well be a tender youngster of only 60 for all I know During all of those years, Russia was doing it's level best to consume all of the nations that were teetering between them and the West, and doing a fair job of gaining ground. Of course, as soon as they gained control of a nation, they clamped it in the iron jaws...not of "friendly" socialism....but of totalitarian communism, and escape for the nation was nearly impossible. NOTHING could break that death grip except the predictable failure of communism itself. The memory of Khruschev beating his shoe on the table and screaming "we will bury you" still haunts the memories of those of us old enough to recall it, and a fair portion of US citizens were so terrified of the russians and their bombs that they were ready to vow it was "bettter to be red than dead", even though our news showed their crop failures and starving peasants. The upshot is that if russia suddenly feels "threatened" by another Nato nation on their border, well, PRAISE GOD! That was exactly what Nato was designed to accomplish, and LONG may she wave. IF Russia can ever go 50 years without attacking one of her neighbors every time she gets a few bucks ahead and has a good harvest, maybe some decade she can be trusted again, but my advice would be not to hold your breath......Joe
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 13, 2023 3:59:38 GMT
farmrbrown , Might I inquire as to how much of the cold war years you were alive and politically aware? You might just as well be a tender youngster of only 60 for all I know During all of those years, Russia was doing it's level best to consume all of the nations that were teetering between them and the West, and doing a fair job of gaining ground. Of course, as soon as they gained control of a nation, they clamped it in the iron jaws...not of "friendly" socialism....but of totalitarian communism, and escape for the nation was nearly impossible. NOTHING could break that death grip except the predictable failure of communism itself. The memory of Khruschev beating his shoe on the table and screaming "we will bury you" still haunts the memories of those of us old enough to recall it, and a fair portion of US citizens were so terrified of the russians and their bombs that they were ready to vow it was "bettter to be red than dead", even though our news showed their crop failures and starving peasants. The upshot is that if russia suddenly feels "threatened" by another Nato nation on their border, well, PRAISE GOD! That was exactly what Nato was designed to accomplish, and LONG may she wave. IF Russia can ever go 50 years without attacking one of her neighbors every time she gets a few bucks ahead and has a good harvest, maybe some decade she can be trusted again, but my advice would be not to hold your breath......Joe 59.....and some of my earliest memories in south Florida are listening to my dad about the Cuban missile crisis which was VERY close to home, pun intended. But rather than repeat myself, you can read any of my posts you want, maybe starting with this thread? countryconservatives.proboards.com/thread/15003/next-war-russia( I stopped replying after you questioned my memory about you and your wife's withdrawal from opiates earlier this year, but I found that odd considering I posted on that thread as well. So no, for the record, my memory is in very good shape, thank you)
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Post by Txsteader on Sept 13, 2023 11:21:28 GMT
Has a perfect nation ever existed? Nope. And it never will. You know, human nature and all that.
BUT the US has lifted more people worldwide out of poverty than any other nation. We have fed more people worldwide than any other nation. We have given medical aid to more people worldwide than any other nation. It's the US that nations look to for humanitarian aid during disasters. Yet to hear some talk, we're the most evil nation on the planet.
That's not to say that we should turn a blind eye to our failings or not seek to do better. But we will never be perfect - nor will any other nation.
Human nature = folks don't appreciate what they've got until it's gone.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 13, 2023 13:52:47 GMT
There is some debate about who Poland hates more, the Russians or the Germans. But there is no debate about Polish pugnaciousness. The Poles will fight.
Right now, I think they perceive Russia as their primary threat and Germany as a somewhat reluctant ally. They are very much ramping up their military. I'd keep a very sharp eye on the Ukrainian and Belarusian borders.
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Post by Txsteader on Sept 13, 2023 14:51:11 GMT
Heh, sounds like there's lots of racism and bigotry in the East.
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Post by Jolly on Sept 13, 2023 15:59:42 GMT
Possibly more than in the U.S.
But if you'd really like to see pure hate, go to the Far East or the Middle East.
The world is a messed up place...
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 13, 2023 21:22:01 GMT
Has a perfect nation ever existed? Nope. And it never will. You know, human nature and all that. BUT the US has lifted more people worldwide out of poverty than any other nation. We have fed more people worldwide than any other nation. We have given medical aid to more people worldwide than any other nation. It's the US that nations look to for humanitarian aid during disasters. Yet to hear some talk, we're the most evil nation on the planet. That's not to say that we should turn a blind eye to our failings or not seek to do better. But we will never be perfect - nor will any other nation. Human nature = folks don't appreciate what they've got until it's gone. That's probably true but I think that no one has a higher opinion of the USA than WE do, lol. Just sayin, with 3% of the world's population it might be a good idea to occasionally listen to how the other 97% view us. It's possible that they are ALL wrong, but I wouldn't bet more than a dollar on it.
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Post by Ozarks Tom on Sept 13, 2023 22:57:55 GMT
farmrbrown, Our example, our Constitution, capitalism, Bill of Rights, representative Republic, rule of law (until recently), and willingness to fight Nazis/fascism/Imperialism/communism to free countries thousand of miles from our shores has brought the world out of feudalism and monarchy. It's brought billions of people out of abject poverty by example of government structure. There's no doubt this country is much less than perfect, heck, it's run by humans. But in spite of our faults we have an overwhelming history we should be proud of. That 97% you mention, and what they think? If they'd have accomplished what we have I might pay attention to what they think. But they haven't.
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Post by joebill on Sept 13, 2023 23:20:15 GMT
What makes you think that 97% of the planet holds a low opinion of us? A HUGE number are willing to walk hundreds or thousands of miles, risk miserable death in the sonoran desert, get robbed and raped by the Policia in each of the craphole nations South of here in turn, then enter this nation with NOTHING, in hopes of being allowed to stay. Over the years, I have been friends with "wetbacks" from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Mexico, Norway, and a few survivors of Nazi death camps, and each of them thanked God daily for the blessings of being allowed to stay here, even those who feared deportation daily. Further back, consider all those 12 million who came here through Ellis Island. When my brother in law and his family arrived here from the death camps as rescues, Gabe's younger brother was refused entrance because he checked positive for TB, and so the family let him stay on the ship and find a home in Canada, where perspective adoptive parents were no so picky....waved good bye to a minor son, to SAVE the rest of the family by staying here. For a list of who loves us and who hates us, click this link; www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/07/15/which-countries-dont-like-america-and-which-do/I'd say we are doing pretty well, since we are to be judged not only by our friends but by our enemies.......Joe
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 13, 2023 23:46:23 GMT
farmrbrown , Our example, our Constitution, capitalism, Bill of Rights, representative Republic, rule of law (until recently), and willingness to fight Nazis/fascism/Imperialism/communism to free countries thousand of miles from our shores has brought the world out of feudalism and monarchy. It's brought billions of people out of abject poverty by example of government structure. There's no doubt this country is much less than perfect, heck, it's run by humans. But in spite of our faults we have an overwhelming history we should be proud of. That 97% you mention, and what they think? If they'd have accomplished what we have I might pay attention to what they think. But they haven't. The one thing I AM sure of is, if each of us were allowed to teach a History class for a day, there would be as many different viewpoints as there are grains of sand in the sea. I briefly looked back into history (world history of course) at a few stats and there's not much debate on the progress made in the last 200 years. In fact that's something even you and Bill Gates agree on. And I'm sure anyone would acknowledge you'd have to include the 2 most populous countries on the planet in those stats - China and India. I guess what I'm saying is, it's possible to be proud of your own country's accomplishments without demeaning or dismissing everyone else's in the world too. It's a big world out there and it's amazing what you can learn when you take the time to look. Just my 2 cents.
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 13, 2023 23:49:01 GMT
What makes you think that 97% of the planet holds a low opinion of us? A HUGE number are willing to walk hundreds or thousands of miles, risk miserable death in the sonoran desert, get robbed and raped by the Policia in each of the craphole nations South of here in turn, then enter this nation with NOTHING, in hopes of being allowed to stay. Over the years, I have been friends with "wetbacks" from Czechoslovakia, Poland, Mexico, Norway, and a few survivors of Nazi death camps, and each of them thanked God daily for the blessings of being allowed to stay here, even those who feared deportation daily. Further back, consider all those 12 million who came here through Ellis Island. When my brother in law and his family arrived here from the death camps as rescues, Gabe's younger brother was refused entrance because he checked positive for TB, and so the family let him stay on the ship and find a home in Canada, where perspective adoptive parents were no so picky....waved good bye to a minor son, to SAVE the rest of the family by staying here. For a list of who loves us and who hates us, click this link; www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2014/07/15/which-countries-dont-like-america-and-which-do/I'd say we are doing pretty well, since we are to be judged not only by our friends but by our enemies.......Joe Never said that, show me where I did. This is the point I've been making. Y'all grow a thicker skin and better eyesight, ok? lol
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Post by farmrbrown on Sept 14, 2023 0:05:51 GMT
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